tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post5435029338877791535..comments2023-12-24T20:48:11.634+00:00Comments on Opinionated Vicar: Last Chance To See...... Church of England Membership and Attendance Stats 2019David Keenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-73721707359890355332021-08-30T17:24:38.414+01:002021-08-30T17:24:38.414+01:00True perhaps. But might it not make it easier to r...True perhaps. But might it not make it easier to reconnect when they have children of their own or in middle age?MarcAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18347727959672751531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-9058125724340628742021-02-07T17:01:28.032+00:002021-02-07T17:01:28.032+00:00Thank you for such a detailed response. Fascinatin...Thank you for such a detailed response. Fascinating. I suppose times are changing and adjustments are inevitable. The only way to survive for churches or pubs is to get a little creative and be open to ideas and to listen to the community that I served. Crowd funding is saving Jane Austen’s house. I think that is a good option for extensive and expensive repairs. sarahdipityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10438142023437635867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-21478200034273969802021-02-07T16:56:21.482+00:002021-02-07T16:56:21.482+00:00Not a silly question at all. I think pretty much a...Not a silly question at all. I think pretty much all Anglican churches are on land owned by the church. When church buildings close down, they tend to be repurposed for something else - housing, work space, etc. I think other countries have other models, e.g. on the continent some of the upkeep of churches is paid for by the community out of taxation. There are more churches looking at going David Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-77894794341724577152021-01-25T22:19:05.626+00:002021-01-25T22:19:05.626+00:00Silly question - are all the churches and the land...Silly question - are all the churches and the land they are on owned by the Anglican Church or are some on private land and paid for by the community or by a private person. Could a Church be owned by a town and used for other purposes as well perhaps and the upkeep paid for by the community that they serve. Sorry if this question has been addressed a million times, I am new to your blog. sarahdipityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10438142023437635867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-86636124527226951732020-11-08T20:55:01.340+00:002020-11-08T20:55:01.340+00:00In my new blog https://wordpress.com/post/davidefl...In my new blog https://wordpress.com/post/davideflavell.wordpress.com/916 I quote your article and make some comparisons with the MethodistsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898513134124019823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-12671623326559484512020-11-02T15:10:53.674+00:002020-11-02T15:10:53.674+00:00Sorry above comment was from Robin GambleSorry above comment was from Robin GambleAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759559390858449350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-12966467473644152192020-11-02T15:09:56.000+00:002020-11-02T15:09:56.000+00:00Thank you for your blog. For the careful analysis ...Thank you for your blog. For the careful analysis of the statistics; for its fascinating analogy based on Tesco's and especially for the important and prophetic wake up call. This call needs to be desperately heard especially by bishops, archbishops, archdeacons, diocesan secretaries, missioners and youth advisors.<br />They, or I should as a missioner say, 'we' are the ones with the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759559390858449350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-12684772276681589272020-10-23T00:32:54.590+01:002020-10-23T00:32:54.590+01:00'24% of those confirmed were aged under 12'...'24% of those confirmed were aged under 12' (the report p.19)<br /><br />Nuts. This means that vast numbers of children are still being machined into being done with no real engagement with what it's about. I bet that the vast majority of those won't be in church 6 years later. Ender's Shadownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-15442870160580416382020-10-22T21:25:44.642+01:002020-10-22T21:25:44.642+01:00I think the general quality of research and analys...I think the general quality of research and analysis into the way people are engaging with church is deeply inadequate. 'Attendance' is one metric, of course - an important one. But it is the bluntest of instruments. It's shocking, for example, that there isn't research into to what type of people are leaving and why - what sort of spiritual / religious character are they? What John Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02918304139106245060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-46025033936337662702020-10-22T14:01:45.950+01:002020-10-22T14:01:45.950+01:00My apologies, that was clumsily expressed. Though ...My apologies, that was clumsily expressed. Though we did have a service of Evening Prayer which once was exactly like this, and when we talked to everyone who came it was almost 100% because they felt they ought to be there. <br /><br />Our experience in lockdown, especially before going back into church buildings, was that a 'virtual' Sunday service could be done without any of those David Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-24740217352076156802020-10-22T13:15:41.448+01:002020-10-22T13:15:41.448+01:00I live in an urban area with absurd numbers of Cof...I live in an urban area with absurd numbers of CofE buildings of minimal merit architecturally. Yet they continue to summon ever smaller numbers of people to their service.<br /><br />After over 50 years in the CofE, my local parish's collapse into the inclusivist agenda and other things forced me to abandon it for the local 'New Frontiers' instance. We are a growing church - yes, of Ender's Shadownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-54101587060476586342020-10-22T13:06:22.173+01:002020-10-22T13:06:22.173+01:00The first reform of the parish share should be to ...The first reform of the parish share should be to present it as a 'request for subsidy' in parishes which don't pay the full cost (about 50k per full time priest) of their clergy. If parishioners heard that they were getting subsidised by others, rather than whinging at the parish share, they would be far more grateful! Note that this is merely a matter of presentation, requiring onlyEnder's Shadownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-54200931198436576722020-10-22T11:37:13.376+01:002020-10-22T11:37:13.376+01:00Thank you for this, David. I agree, and am not sur...Thank you for this, David. I agree, and am not surprised that the responses are mixed. The problem lies in the institutional inertia of an established church that couldn't fix the parish system even if it wanted to without Act of Parliament, and probably disestablishment. It probably means that the emerging church will take root in the wreckage of the old, and alongside it. It's happeningAdrian Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11218184238894525790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-12819238761802112332020-10-22T11:05:56.083+01:002020-10-22T11:05:56.083+01:00Thank you so much for this. I like the Tesco analo...Thank you so much for this. I like the Tesco analogy, I know some won't like the corporate business model metaphor, however local Tesco Express outlets have flexibility to stock what's needed/wanted locally and can creatively support local community endeavours as the manager sees fit, whilst having the structural support of the national brand and other local outlets.Tim Yauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09034448752670216730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-29014408550734452352020-10-22T10:04:02.700+01:002020-10-22T10:04:02.700+01:00What's the alternative to parish share, Anna? ...What's the alternative to parish share, Anna? I can think of a few, but most of them are not great - eg. churches pay for their own clergy, if they can afford to.Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08102799923678550905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-71094046220348485362020-10-22T10:02:11.660+01:002020-10-22T10:02:11.660+01:00Hi David. So many questions! EG: If the problem is...Hi David. So many questions! EG: If the problem is that "we pour so many resources into worship, and the building and professional caste that make it happen", aren't those exactly the things you need to do in order to maintain a membership-focussed church? In which case, is worrying about membership maybe the wrong thing to do anyway?<br /><br />Also - the Tesco model works really Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08102799923678550905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-81275628736434250432020-10-22T09:19:51.785+01:002020-10-22T09:19:51.785+01:00Hmmm. Well I do not deny the changes we are facing...Hmmm. Well I do not deny the changes we are facing and the need for renewed structured. But since this is where we find ourselves and this is where we are trying to make a difference, is it really any help to say 'you should be starting somewhere else'? David Runcornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13184690881858060277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-36643090452847480292020-10-22T08:26:30.957+01:002020-10-22T08:26:30.957+01:00I object to this on behalf of myself and fellow of...I object to this on behalf of myself and fellow officials... "You wouldn't have so many aspects to Sunday worship (warden, verger, organist, reader, prayer leader, vicar, sidesperson) that there's barely anyone there who isn't there because they're on a rota". I am sure I am speaking for all of us when I say that we are rher because we want to be, and we care enough Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12232472203341224273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-84670801035516587542020-10-22T08:02:50.041+01:002020-10-22T08:02:50.041+01:00Hi David, astute as ever ! I am with you all the w...Hi David, astute as ever ! I am with you all the way untill your final paragraph about buildings. Yes they can be a dreadful bind and a distraction from the things that matter but they are also, at best, a unique tool for mission. People are drawn to sacred spaces, the 'otherness' of them and the rituals that happen within them do offer hope, solace and wonder. I know we shouldn't beAnna Norman -Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01936183708146258871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-35292401795910426802020-10-21T20:41:36.352+01:002020-10-21T20:41:36.352+01:00David, such great analysis as ever - thank you! We...David, such great analysis as ever - thank you! We have not reopened yet and it is doing us so good! Breaking dependency on buildings clergy and Sunday. We have gone for mid size communities. It's taken a few months but you can really see both growth in maturity and numbers. I am quite taken aback tbh, though I knew in theory that's what would happen.Richard Englandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14180153339149073147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-83782177831454141762020-10-20T21:01:53.384+01:002020-10-20T21:01:53.384+01:00Many thanks to your opinion. I'm not an usual ...Many thanks to your opinion. I'm not an usual on this site. I have heard of it today from a comment on Thinking Anglicans about the CofE statistics... I'm a Catholic too, but living in Portugal.<br /><br />Surely how I understand you... In places where Catholicism has been a minority, it is going quite well these days... Let us to keep the cultural wars apart. In places where Catholicism Pensamento Positivohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15966734551651698758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-61574913466064972872020-10-20T12:17:07.678+01:002020-10-20T12:17:07.678+01:00I am a Catholic in my 30's and the CofE seems ...I am a Catholic in my 30's and the CofE seems to have long since lost the spirit.<br /><br />The Catholic Church is stronger in most UK cities than the Anglican Church, I realise this is mainly down to demographics...however, however.....there is a strength in clinging close to the Gospel and close to Christ that I don't sense in Anglicanism.<br />I sense it in Orthodoxy and in Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10459474403746832042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-76244940010470930712020-10-17T18:58:51.422+01:002020-10-17T18:58:51.422+01:00The logic of remarks strikes me as being irrefutab...The logic of remarks strikes me as being irrefutable. Thank you.<br /><br />However, this is to suppose that the parish share - a comparatively recent innovation - should be the model for Church finance.<br /><br />We ought to bear in mind why the parish share came into existence: (i) it was a reaction (perhaps an excessive reaction) to the blunders of the Lovelock years, taking the Church from Frogholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17017833849456366817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-30391413351017955592020-10-17T07:58:24.612+01:002020-10-17T07:58:24.612+01:00We could also really do with some more detailed an...We could also really do with some more detailed analysis within Dioceses. The report mentions 10% of growing churches. How many of them manage to sustain that? The maths of Parish Share payments in our Diocese, with most churches declining, means that a growing church will pay an ever-increasing Parish Share, which grows at a faster rate than membership + inflation. Eventually, the sheer maths David Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-10580881419029594642020-10-17T00:00:20.964+01:002020-10-17T00:00:20.964+01:00Thanks for this analysis David, It is worth notin...Thanks for this analysis David, It is worth noting in the context of your initial paragraphs that the "2020 digital report" was released on the same day. This is relentlessly upbeat - but the numbers bear very little examination: I would suggest they are actually disappointing given the closure of churches for Covid..... It's hard not to be cynical about this. Revnelli@aol.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com