tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post2180394398604152168..comments2023-12-24T20:48:11.634+00:00Comments on Opinionated Vicar: The Leading of the 5000: Redesigning the CofEDavid Keenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-49969739393125202332012-07-20T19:41:04.642+01:002012-07-20T19:41:04.642+01:00A really good analysis of the issues shared by so ...A really good analysis of the issues shared by so many across the church.<br /><br />We have a 5 church benefice, shortly to become 9. One Vicar and a HFD who works many more hours than contracted. Priesthood is 24/7, 365 a year. In fact, they could be described as the 1st Emergency Service. Many people don't want a priest in their life until some drama erupts and they expect them to appear UKViewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18114944341930758335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-83163911457195453292012-07-20T12:19:44.425+01:002012-07-20T12:19:44.425+01:00On clergy leaving for Rome: all I have heard about...On clergy leaving for Rome: all I have heard about are priests who are already over retirement age and who therefore leave with their CofE pension to live on, rather than having to survive on RC terms and conditions. So I don't think it affects numbers of active CofE clergy. <br /><br />And I think the big 'wastage' issue (and it will increase) is those priests who want to move but Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151157355179636813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-48769077486615167782012-07-16T19:51:19.009+01:002012-07-16T19:51:19.009+01:00Oops, that sounded rather circular. I meant to say...Oops, that sounded rather circular. I meant to say "if the problem of the shrinking church attendance is solved".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-83580485442849861152012-07-16T19:50:30.409+01:002012-07-16T19:50:30.409+01:00Although the shrinking stipendiary ministry is a p...Although the shrinking stipendiary ministry is a problem, it's solved to a large extent if the whole problem of the shrinking ministry is solved. How about some good old-fashioned proselytism? Like our Mormon or non-denominational Evangelical friends? Try to get parishioners to get some friends over on a Sunday and see what it's like. CoFE has so much to offer: beautiful liturgy with the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-62484008998660638962012-07-15T12:38:53.883+01:002012-07-15T12:38:53.883+01:00Anonymous - there's a discussion on 'wasta...Anonymous - there's a discussion on 'wastage', including statistics, in Killing George Herbert. Roughly speaking, with no wastage, we wouldn't be facing declining numbers. As it happens, in a conversation with my bishop the other day, he mentioned that the Diocese needs to think about 'retention'.Sam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-35906244438822556152012-07-15T00:09:48.216+01:002012-07-15T00:09:48.216+01:00An interesting collection of important points abou...An interesting collection of important points about the church's human resources. Thanks.<br />One further observation from someone who has been a priest in chaplaincies/cathedrals/outside the parochial system nearly all his ministry- Many clergy seem to be disregarded when they leave those bits the hierarchy can manage (the parochial system). This can be to the detriment of both them and theAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-13095803788491607022012-07-14T16:54:19.459+01:002012-07-14T16:54:19.459+01:00The analysis is good, except for one factor that h...The analysis is good, except for one factor that has been missed out. That is the number of CofE clergy who are leaving to join the Catholic Church. That must be running at around 50 per year at the present time.<br /><br />If we assume that on average these leave the CofE 12 years before their retirement age, then the the total number of active clergy is reduced by another 600. <br /><br />Et Expectohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04273064434098923960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-14333072911680015942012-07-13T10:23:54.251+01:002012-07-13T10:23:54.251+01:00Hi quotidiancleric: I think you are right about bu...Hi quotidiancleric: I think you are right about bureaucracy -- or rather about 'governance', as the burden of governance in multiple parish benefices is crippling. And you are right about rural church buildings. We need credible fixes for these. A key component, I think, is creating separate funds for 'ministry' and 'building' and putting a firewall between them. People Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151157355179636813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-39502339112069491852012-07-12T13:28:23.066+01:002012-07-12T13:28:23.066+01:00Just to say that this discussion prompted me to re...Just to say that this discussion prompted me to read the Tiller report - with some consequent thoughts written up here: http://elizaphanian.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/the-dying-of-church-is-not-management.htmlSam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-83356317055653764802012-07-08T20:39:00.808+01:002012-07-08T20:39:00.808+01:00Spawnee - I guess we'll find out, the average ...Spawnee - I guess we'll find out, the average age of people going into paid vicaring is going up, as is the average age of congregations, so the window of opportunity for the CofE to respond to things is rapidly closing.<br /><br />Hugh - good point, thankyou for making it. I guess I was avoiding the term 'stipendiary' as its churchy jargon not used anywhere else. I wonder if actuallyDavid Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-12195624976359412292012-07-08T19:40:44.431+01:002012-07-08T19:40:44.431+01:00I have just come across this thread and find it ve...I have just come across this thread and find it very interesting, though not especially depressing as the underlying trend and story is one I am aware of. David, could I ask you to consider slight changes to the terms you use? As someone who follows the vocation of a worker-priest, I wish paid clergy would not describe themselves as 'full time' in contradistinction to people like me (Hugh Valentinehttp://with-intent.confiteor.org.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-82214234916723153972012-07-08T16:15:04.546+01:002012-07-08T16:15:04.546+01:00I wonder how much the sharp increase in younger ge...I wonder how much the sharp increase in younger generations identifying as agnostic or atheists will have an impact?Spawneehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16138580789876276248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-1611175127504531092012-07-07T12:26:17.211+01:002012-07-07T12:26:17.211+01:00Interesting article and discussion!
The stats are...Interesting article and discussion! <br />The stats are rather skewed by having urban & rural lumped together, so my rural situation doesn't look like the projection, but in conflicting directions.<br />I already have 6 parishes, 6 buildings, 6 PCCs (as part of a team of 13 of each!) but the population is only about 4000 and the pastoral offices load is nothing like as high as the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-20050768642080888422012-07-04T19:11:38.850+01:002012-07-04T19:11:38.850+01:00Interesting. Were deeply rural here, too and cover...Interesting. Were deeply rural here, too and cover huge amounts of territory. We've succeeded in reducing our deaneries to four and we have readers and others working across whole deaneries in some places. We have a lot of what I'd call 'midsized' benefices/teams. The biggest is 13 churches, 10 PCCs but a more usual size is around 6-8 churches. We have some burgeoning fresh Janet Hendersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00663828975134608297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-84871769461583081092012-07-03T09:12:28.371+01:002012-07-03T09:12:28.371+01:00Janet: I think Tiller was right in his day/context...Janet: I think Tiller was right in his day/context -- that we need to work at the level above 'parish', which in his day was effectively Deanery. I used to argue this myself. But church life has moved on, and a lot of church life (especially in more rural places) operates in 'united benefices', teams or 'mission communities'. Our Deanery here is composed of only two Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151157355179636813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-58207926160131557822012-07-02T22:13:04.673+01:002012-07-02T22:13:04.673+01:00Agree with much of what you say, David! Actually i...Agree with much of what you say, David! Actually it's beginning to happen round here - small changes about how people worship and when, churches majoring on festivals, occasional offices and special services like lambing, harvest, plough Sundays, school celebrations, etc. One group of churches in a Dale, including ecumenical partners, getting together to employ one architect who will help Janet Hendersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00663828975134608297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-86630382476817268332012-07-02T09:15:24.894+01:002012-07-02T09:15:24.894+01:00Hi Janet: the trouble with Tiller was that it need...Hi Janet: the trouble with Tiller was that it needed the leadership of the CofE to make the key difficult decisions. Plans that require this will always fail. These leaders have progressed to where they are mostly because they fit the way things are. We need solutions that can be enacted at parish level unilaterally, or probably at 'benefice' level as many clergy have multiple parishes, David Muirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-17255594730570353752012-07-01T20:06:45.950+01:002012-07-01T20:06:45.950+01:00Very interesting reading and sharply presented. I ...Very interesting reading and sharply presented. I also looked at Sam Norton's blogpost. We have to start doing things differently but can we? I remeber the days when, as an ordinand, we all said Tiller was right but could we get anyone to implement his recommendations? We'd be in a better place if we had! We need younger ordinands and to allow older ordinands who are suitable through the Janet Hendersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00663828975134608297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-7568616155392762172012-06-30T15:38:56.718+01:002012-06-30T15:38:56.718+01:00Blakcjack: I don't quite see how something cou...Blakcjack: I don't quite see how something could be 'within the Church of England' and be 'non-CofE'. The CofE IS the established church of this country, inshrined in law; the only question is what to do with it. One mechanism, as you hint, is to start new and parallel congregations. In fact, the present 'fresh expressions' agenda of the CofE, which has official David Muirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-69671346431774845582012-06-29T20:47:12.874+01:002012-06-29T20:47:12.874+01:00David - thanks for your perceptive thoughts. How a...David - thanks for your perceptive thoughts. How about being even more radical and admitting that the CofE is declining, and we ought to leave it to the older generations to manage its decline, while the young (and more radical of us oldies) start a parallel church? Church attendance nationally is increasing - but the establishes (small "e") denominations are shrinking. Let's start blakcjacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-14749489434143839332012-06-29T11:56:21.297+01:002012-06-29T11:56:21.297+01:00Hi David: thanks for the interesting figures. The ...Hi David: thanks for the interesting figures. The trouble with your flat-lined figure of 5000 clergy is that by the time we get to that point, all the other figures will have moved. But you are right (later comment) that the established nature of the CofE makes a huge difference (so not at all like the SEC example from Scotland), or like the Methodists and Baptists here. However, the really David Muirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-44885308223327988672012-06-28T16:09:12.531+01:002012-06-28T16:09:12.531+01:00I am all for increasing lay-leadership, as I belie...I am all for increasing lay-leadership, as I believe it is a biblical model to raise up leaders from within.. but the way this is done in Southwark (and probably elsewhere) demonstrates the middle-class bent of the church - to be a reader you now have to do 4 years training. In our working-class big-family-high-stress-low-literacy congregation, that is unfathomable. 4 years, one evening a week, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-63535611630498426172012-06-28T13:40:05.360+01:002012-06-28T13:40:05.360+01:00Benedictus - thankyou, it's good to know that ...Benedictus - thankyou, it's good to know that churches can change, and rethink how they do things. There are a couple of things that prevents us, one is reluctance to face the facts (see other comments!), the other is leadership. <br /><br />I suppose you might add a third, which is the established status of the church, including the parish system. Not many Anglicans can work out how the CofEDavid Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-29787624164873464382012-06-28T12:22:24.885+01:002012-06-28T12:22:24.885+01:00Perhaps its the Victorian model of mission that...Perhaps its the Victorian model of mission that's the problem. The Church has been around for a lot longer than 200 years! One wonders if there isn't a radically different way of being church, drawn from a much deeper well, less dependent on 'leadership' and other nonsense, non-Christian concepts.<br /><br />See www.bewcastleminster.org.ukAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35594660.post-86865971667267117112012-06-28T10:32:31.676+01:002012-06-28T10:32:31.676+01:00Sobering reading, another pointer towards the need...Sobering reading, another pointer towards the need for leadership to become more about equipping and enabling the laity for ministry and mission rather than the ordained doing it all, which isn't healthy and was never the original idea anyway.Karen Freemannoreply@blogger.com